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Subject: Ajax. Milan, and the best teams in Europe
From: loris@zeus.physast.uga.edu (Loris Magnani)
Date: Aug 18, 1995
>: In the last ten years Ajax won one more cup in Europe than Real Madrid
>: did. Hardly outright dominance by the dutchmen.
>
>OK, look at this then (From Voetbal International, 08/02/95, p.56):
>
>European Cup games between from 1991 up to 1995
>
>
> Goals
> Team No. of Games Won Tied Lost for/against Difference
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1 Ajax 37 25 9 3 67-20 +47
> 2 AC Milan 34 23 7 4 55-10 +45
...rest deleted...
After reading the above messages, I thought to myself how convenient
to include only games after the 1990/91 season when, by my reckoning,
Milan had already passed its peak. Those of you who have read my
diatribes know that I am of the opinion that Milan peaked in 1987-90
and that what we see today is a team which has undergone an amazingly
graceful decline. I say amazingly graceful because most teams just
drop out of the top echelon rather quickly after a period of domination.
Milan has managed to remain among the elite of European football despite
the decline or loss of several key players from the 87-90 period (e.g.,
the aging of Baresi and Tassotti, the loss of van Basten and the decline
of Gullit, the retirement of Ancelotti, etc.). So I decided to go back
and look at the stats for the last 10 years. I assumed that Milan would
blow by Ajax statistically since the latest "Golden Age" of A.C. Milan
would be included...Well, the results really surprised me...
Without further ado, here are the results of my research:
Ajax - last 10 European seasons:
Cup Season Games W T L GF GA
C1 1994/5 11 7 4 0 18 4 Won
C2 1993/4 6 3 1 2 12 4
C3 1992/3 8 7 0 1 17 6
C3 1991/2 12 8 4 0 20 6 Won
-- 1990/1 BANNED from EUROPE
C3 1989/0 2 0 0 2 0 4 Return vs. Austria V.
lost by 3-0 forfeit score
C3 1988/9 2 0 0 2 3 6
C2 1987/8 9 7 0 2 15 3 Lost final
C2 1986/7 11 7 2 2 22 5 Won
C1 1985/6 2 0 1 1 0 2
____________________________________________________________________________
63 39 12 12 107 40
Milan - last 10 European seasons:
C1 1994/5 11 6 2 3 11 6 Lost final
C1 1993/4 12 7 5 0 21 2 Won
C1 1992/3 11 10 0 1 23 2 Lost final
-- 1991/2 BANNED from EUROPE
C1 1990/1 4 1 2 1 2 4 Return vs. O. Marseilles
lost by 3-0 forfeit score
C1 1989/0 9 6 1 2 12 3 Won
C1 1988/9 9 5 4 0 20 5 Won
C3 1987/8 4 1 1 2 3 3
-- 1986/7 Did not qualify for any cup
C3 1985/6 6 2 1 3 9 9
_____________________________________________________________________________
66 38 16 12 101 34
Much to my surprise, Milan has not vaulted ahead of Ajax, even including
the 1987-90 period. I guess that I did not have sufficient appreciation
for Ajax's accomplishments in the past decade. They really have been
amazingly successful and perhaps I am today more willing to tolerate the
incessant crowing on the part of Ajax supporters. During the last decade
they have won all 3 European Cups and gone to one other final. My guess is
that their lack of dominance in their own league during this period has
kept them from getting the credit they deserve...In any case, I failed
to prove my point about Milan's undisputed European dominance in the last
10 years, but at least I learned something.
HOWEVER,
If we go back another 5 or 10 or 15 years from the above, Milan's stats
will quickly drop them out of the top 10. You see, Milan is back among
the European elite after about 15 years of utter mediocrity. They
lost the Cup Winners Cup final in 1974 (having won in the year before) and
then pretty much did nothing in Europe until the 1988 season when they
won the European Champions Cup. Before 1974 they had been a power in
Europe since the inception of the Cup Competitions in 1956 (and actually
even before, having won 2 Latin Cups in the early fifties).
The point is that if we want to discuss the best teams in Europe from a
historical perspective we should look at the alltime table which I have
posted previously:
All-Time Ranking in European Cup Competition (EC1, EC2, and EC3)
updated through the end of the 1994/95 season
Rank # Team Country Games Won Tied Lost GF GA pts.
1 39 Real Madrid Spain 265 150 44 71 569 286 344
2 40 Barcelona Spain 269 143 57 69 525 292 343 **
3 34 Juventus Italy 240 143 41 56 435 202* 327
4 36 Benfica Portugal 213 105 54 54 390 208* 264
5 27 Bayern Munich Germany 196 107 46 43 406* 198* 260
6 34 Anderlecht Belgium 208# 106 40* 62 377 258* 252
7 27 AC Milan Italy 185 100 42 43 323 159 242
8 32 Inter Italy 194 97 43 54 307 174 237
9 31 Ajax Holland 172 101 28 43 329 153 230
10 23 Liverpool England 152 90 26 36 304 121 206
10 33 Red Star Bel. Yugoslavia 177 88* 30 59* 341* 237* 206
12 25 1FC Cologne Germany 160* 84 29 47 310 186 197
13 34 Rangers Scotland 163 78 31 54 265 209 187
14 29 Atletico Mad. Spain 148 80 24 44 248 159 184
15 33 Porto Portugal 149 73 25 51 230 163 171
16 30 Celtic Scotland 140 71 26 43 246 139 168
17 20 Hamburg SV Germany 131 73 21 37 264 155 167
18 24 Dinamo Kiev Ukraine 130 68 27 35 199 124 163
19 16 Borussia Moe. Germany 115 68 25 22 261 125 161
20 25 Feyenoord Holland 129 65 27 37 242 142 157
20 34 Sporting CP Portugal 145 62 33 50 252 168 157
22 18 Manchester U. England 111 58 30 22 220 121 146
23 22 Standard Lie. Belgium 122 62 20 40 211 151 144
24 21 Spartak Mosc. Russia 114 58 25 31 197 121 141
25 21 Valencia Spain 117 56 27 33 213 151 139
The asterisks denote discrepancies with various sources but I believe the
errors in this table are rather minor.
The conclusion is that, no matter how you slice it, the top three teams
in Europe from the inception of the European Cups are, IN NO PARTICULAR
ORDER:
Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Juventus
Year in and year out, they have dominated in Europe and internally in
their league competitions.
On the second tier, again in no particular order, I would place
Benfica, Bayern Munich, Milan, and Ajax
And on the third tier, again in no particular order, I would place
Liverpool, Inter, and Anderlecht.
Everyone else comes after...
As a Milan fan, I take pride in knowing that only 2 teams have participated
in at least one European final in each decade: 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's,
and 90's... those two teams are A.C. Milan and FC Barcelona. If Real Madrid
manages to get into a final before the decade is out, they will join that
company.
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Subject: Re: Champion's Cup: Milan vs. Porto
From: Loris Magnani
Date: Sep 13, 1996
Manuel writes:
>Finally, someone with a decent opinion :-)
>It's true though, just think about it. If Milan wins, they're the best
>in the world. If Milan loses: it was a bad day, and the excuses start
>rolling in. The other team never gets any credit for it.
>
>Lets see, what excuses do we have now? New coach? So does Porto. New
>players? So does Porto. Players that missed the game? So does Porto.
>Begining of the season? So is Porto. What next???
You want to know what the real difference between Porto and Milan
is?
When you win 3-2 in San Siro, hundreds of your fans show up at the
airport to welcome the team home and one of your newspapers has
a headine titled "Historic!".
When Milan beats Porto in Oporto, as happened a few years ago on
a goal by Papin, nobody shows up at the Milan airport and the
headlines of the papers say: "Milan beats Porto 1-0".
When you understand that difference then you will understand why
some people make excuses when a team like Milan loses. I don't
make those excuses because I understood a long time ago that in
soccer on any given day almost anything can happen. I learned the
hard way watching that best european club side that I had seen since
Cruyff's Ajax, that is the Milan side of 1989/90, lose
seven league games. Seven out of 34. That club was much better than
the current Milan club, much better than the side that went undefeated
in Serie A a few years ago, much better than the side that beat
Barcelona 4-0. Of those seven losses, 3 were to teams that were
relegated that year. There is no way of rationally explaining how
a team that can manhandle European powerhouses and win the
Intercontinental Cup by 3-0, can then lose to Cremonese, Ascoli, and
Verona. But that's what happened, and that's what soccer is all
about. The best Milan team of the last decade or even the last
two decades did not even win the italian league that year. So,
congratulations on your "historic" victory, but please spare us the
sarcasm, because no team ever goes undefeated forever.
I find after 30+ years of following Serie A it is sometimes difficult
to decide who is the best team in Italy after everyone has played
30-34 games...Sometimes it's clear, but sometimes it's not. To base
any judgement on the result of 1 game is absurd. For Milan to win
5 European Champions Cups, they had to reach 8 finals. Even when they
beat Barcelona 4-0, the only statement that could be made was that
ON THAT DAY,they were better. But neither I nor anyone else knows
what would have happened if those teams had played 10 games over the
period of a month. Would Milan have won 8? WOuld Barcelona have won
8? Would they both have won 5 each?? We will never know. My experience
is that if you have a good team and you want a win a tournament, then
you should play in at least 2 finals. ON AVERAGE, you will win one.
But that's on average, sometimes you will win both, sometimes you
will lose both, but on average you will win about half your games if
you play opposition that is more or less on your level (to the
statisticians out there - within one sigma of where you are).
There, I got it off my chest.