Jun 9, 1995 A note on All-Time XI's (Loris Magnani)
Aug 8, 1995 Milan's All-Time XI (Loris Magnani)
Feb 19, 1997 Top 50 Italian Players Of All Time (Marco Daniele Paserman, e.a.)
Feb 19, 1997 All Time Italian XIs (Massa Sugano)
Apr 24, 1998 Inter's All-Time XI (Paul Mettewie)
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Subject: A note on All-Time XI's
From: loris@zeus.physast.uga.edu (Loris Magnani)
Date: June 9, 1995
Lately we have had a flurry of lists of All-time XI's...this is a fun
activity and is done in every sport. While there can never be a consensus
All-time XI, I would like to make a point about the sweeper (alternatively
one of the central defender) position...
Several postings have put Franco Baresi in one of the central defender
positions, presumably sweeper but not necessarily. This is nice and
I'm happy to see that recognition, but I would like to point out that in
Italy one of the few positions there is consensus about in an All-Italian
All-time XI is sweeper. And that position is held by the late Gaetano
Scirea of Juventus and WC82 fame. He was as good a marker as Baresi was
(and please let's not bring in the Baresi of the last few years, we all
agree he is way past his prime) and he did not resort as often to the hard,
professional foul which Franco has used a bit too often throughout his
career (even when he was truly great he did foul too much). In short,
Scirea had much more of that nebulous quantity called "class" than
Baresi and, in addition, he was a more effective offensive player than
F.B.. So, if you want to put an ITALIAN sweeper in your all-time World
XI (and maybe you should consider players like Passarella, or Krol, or
Bratseth, or someone else...) then you should at least pick the player
italians choose as their Consensus All-Time Sweeper and that's Scirea.
You can put Franco B. on the bench (I actually would put Scirea as
sweeper and Passarella as his replacement on the bench, but I haven't
figured out all the positions yet...)
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Subject: Milan's All-time XI
From: loris@zeus.physast.uga.edu (Loris Magnani)
Date: Aug 8, 1995
I don't feel qualified to pick an all-time World XI, but I do feel
qualified to pick Milan's all-time XI. Granted, there may not be
much interest, but I would be curious to hear comments from any
interested parties...
Cudicini
Schnellinger Rijkaard Baresi P. Maldini
Liedholm Ancelotti Schiaffino
Rivera Nordhal Altafini
Reserves:
Albertosi GK
Tassotti D
Trapattoni D
Lodetti MF
Donadoni MF
van Basten F
Prati F
Gullit F
Notes: Rijkaard played stopper in his first year with Milan (though
he didn't like it...). Schnellinger, Rijkaard, Schiaffino, Altafini,
and Nordhal are foreigners. If you force me to play with only 3
foreigners I would put in Tassotti for Schnellinger and Prati for
Altafini.
======================================================
From: mdpaserm@fas.harvard.edu (Marco Daniele Paserman)
Subject: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time
Date: Feb 19, 1997
As Karel Stokkermans requested, instead of writing down clearly nationally
biased lists, I'll make a list of only Italian players.
Some disclaimers:
1)"All time" really means post 1930s. There is simply too little information
on the pre-WC era.
2) I can make direct judgments on players from the mid 70's onwards, since I
have seen them in live/TV action on a regular basis. I have seen occasional
footage of players of the '60s, and for earlier periods I must rely solely on
what I have read
3) I have not included any "oriundi" (nationalized italians who played for the
Azzurri), to avoid the rage of South American RSSers. Clearly Monti, Orsi,
Cesarini, Sivori and Altafini would have made this list.
4) I tried to maintain a fair ratio of oldtimers to modern players. This
probably comes at the cost of having a bias towards oldtime strikers, since I
can judge them on statistics only.
5) I am a Juventus fan. However, the fact that there may seem to be an
overrepresentation of Juve players is purely a consequence of Juve being the
strongest Italian team of all time :)
Here is the list, in roughly chronological order:
1. Meazza
2. Ferrari
3. Piola
4. Combi
5. Rosetta
6. Caligaris
7. Biavati
8. Valentino Mazzola
9. Loik
10. Gabetto
11. Boffi
12. Puricelli
13. Boniperti
14. Parola
15. Riva
16. Rivera
17. Sandro Mazzola
18. Burgnich
19. Facchetti
20. Corso
21. Picchi
22. Zoff
23. Causio
24. Bettega
25. Antognoni
26. Graziani
27. Pulici
28. Boninsegna
29. Furino
30. Gentile
31. Cabrini
32. Scirea
33. Conti
34. Tardelli
35. Paolo Rossi
36. Bergomi
37. Pruzzo
38. Altobelli
39. Franco Baresi
40. Paolo Maldini
41. Roberto Baggio
42. Mancini
43. Vialli
44. Signori
45-50. ???
There you go. I've left 6 slots free for comments and suggestions.
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From: Riffster (peaceable_me@rest.org)
Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time
Date: Feb 22, 1997
Good list - there are some quibbles, here are my six.
Giorgio Chinaglia (Wales and Lazio loved him before USA ever saw him)
Fabio Capello (Milan and Real Madrid coach)
? Albertosi (the great keeper of Milan/Nazionale in the 60's and 70's)
Walter Zenga (Okay, he is better than Pagliuca - for now...)
Romeo Benetti (cannon for a foot, heart of a lion, Milan 60-70s)
Gianfranco Zola (still the most artistically capable Italian of today)
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From: Massa Sugano (sugano@fas.harvard.edu)
Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time
Date: Feb 23, 1997
Un grandissimo elenco.
Let's see, as the other 6 slots, I can think of Chinaglia, also Cesare
Maldini and Prati from the Milan anni sessanta, and more recently either
Ancelotti or Donadoni. Wait, they're almost all milanisti! I guess I
am having too much pity on them. Zenga might belong on the list, too.
Altobelli looks a bit weak compared to others, doesn't he?
I hope that by 1998 you will be able to confidently add more juventini
on the list.....
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From: Riffster (peaceable_me@rest.org)
Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time
Date: Feb 23, 1997
Altobelli scored 128 goals for Inter in his great career. More than even
the great Sandrino Mazzola (117). He ranks fifth on the all-time scoring
list for Inter, only behind 'immortals' like Meazza, Lorenzi, Cevennini
and Nyers. He definitely belongs on this list.
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From: mdpaserm@login1.fas.harvard.edu (Marco Paserman)
Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time
Date: Feb 24, 1997
Thanks for the comments. A few points:
As Riffster points out, Altobelli certainly deserves a place in the list.
Together with his 128 Serie A goals, he also ranks in the top 15 scorers for
the national team, with 24 or 25 goals. A more serious omission is that of
Lorenzi, among the best strikers of the 50s, a decade which got little
recognition in the original list. Cevenini ? Was he a 1920s player?
Other suggestions:
Chinaglia: OK but he had a very brief career in Serie A
Capello: probably deserves the list (he was mostly a Juve player, after all)
Benetti :yes, just to confirm the fact that we italians put catenaccio heroes
in our lists
Zenga and Albertosi: Both deserving, but I said that the list was biased
towards offensive players
Ancelotti :ok
Donadoni: This one I'll leave out: he never really fully convinced me
Cesare Maldini and Prati...good players, but I don't thnk the'd make the top
50. (even though the Milan team of the 60s is clearly underrepresented)
Possible candidates to enter in the near future: Ferrara, Zola, potentially Del
Piero
Summing up, my six extra slots are:
45. Capello
46. Zenga
47. Albertosi
48. Ancelotti
49. Lorenzi
50. Chinaglia
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From: Riffster (peaceable_me@rest.org)
Subject: Re: Top 50 Italian Players of All Time
Date: Feb 24, 1997
Luigi Cevenini should be from 20's as I can find no mention of him
in any of the histories of Inter that I have, which all seem to
gloss over the period before the arrival of Meazza. After that,
no mention of Cevenini, something I find hard to belive would
have to someone who scored 140 Serie A goals. Must have been one
of the pioneers....And yes, Lorenzi should be included because the
Inter of the early fifties was an attacking powerhouse with Nyers,
Skoglund and Lorenzi the most famous.
> Other suggestions:
> Chinaglia: OK but he had a very brief career in Serie A
Yes, but he was the force behind Lazio's scudetto win in the 70's, a
landmark moment in Italian soccer.
> Capello: probably deserves the list (he was mostly a Juve player, after all)
I withdraw him from consideration then! ;-)
> Benetti :yes, just to confirm the fact that we italians put catenaccio heroes
> in our lists
You remember catenaccio and I remember his cannon shot! Oh well....
> Zenga and Albertosi: Both deserving, but I said that the list was biased
> towards offensive players
While I am ruminating about keepers, how about Giorgio Ghezzi, the
standard for Inter keepers before there was Bordon, Zenga and Pagliuca!
:)
> Ancelotti :ok
As a player yes, as a manager - no!
> Donadoni: This one I'll leave out: he never really fully convinced me
Agreed -- a good player who played hard, but hardly an all-timer.
> Cesare Maldini and Prati...good players, but I don't thnk the'd make the
> top 50.
Maldini was decent and Prati had a few brilliant seasons, but
probably not enough to rate in the top 50.
> (even though the Milan team of the 60s is clearly underrepresented)
Nah -- ci son' troppi rossoneri. basta!
And I have one more name for you - Domenghini! Yes,
I know he is another Interista, but he did have quite
a run in the 60's and early 70's.
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From: Massa Sugano (sugano@fas.harvard.edu
Subject: 5 greatest Italian managers...
Date: Feb 20, 1997
One of them is not born in Italy, though. But he even coached the Italian
national team. Guess who.
1. Giovanni Trapattoni
2. Enzo Bearzot
3. Helenio Herrera
4. Fabio Cappello
5. Marcello Lippi
After which come Rocco, Sacchi, and Valcareggi.
---------------------------------
From: Carvalho (carvalho@mit.edu)
Subject: 5 greatest Italian managers...
Date: Feb 20, 1997
It is the one that imported the Paraguayan approach to soccer to Italy.
It is easy: the only one not with an Italian name
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From: Massa Sugano (sugano@fas.harvard.edu)
Subject: All-time elevens:
Date: Feb 19, 1997
Italy (post-WWII):
Zoff
Bergomi Gentile Baresi Facchetti
Conti Tardelli Rivera Corso (Donadoni)
V.Mazzola P.Rossi
Juventus (post WWII):
Zoff
Scirea
Gentile Kohler Cabrini
Tardelli Platini Deschamps
P.Rossi Bettega Sivori
Milan (post-WWII)
Cudicini
Tassotti C.Maldini Baresi P.Maldini
Gullit Rijkaard Rivera Donadoni
Van Basten Nordahl
==============================
Subject: All-Time Inter Eleven
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:22:02 -0500
From: Paul Mettewie (panino@ix.netcom.com)
I noted in the RSSSF archives that all-time eleven's
for Juventus and Milan as well as Italy itself
existed within the "50 Great Italian Players" thread. At
the time, I was grossly derelict in my duty as a certified
(and certifiable) Inter fan in not submitting a like list of
Inter players. After all, Inter has won 13 scudetti, 2 EC,
2 UEFA and 2 Intercontinental Cups and like Juventus
(on only Inter and Juve) has never, ever been relegated
to Serie B. Unlike Inter's crosstown cousins (poor wretches!)
Here, in a scientifically-adjusted (I used a calculator
before cheating wildly) survey conducted amongst the noble
and omniscient 500-plus members of the Inter Italian
and English mailing list is the .......(drum roll).......
ALL-TIME INTER ELEVEN!!!!
(and reserves)
Keepers: Zenga (Pagliuca)
Defenders: Picchi, Bergomi, Burgnich, Facchetti
(Guarnieri, B. Baresi, Brehme)
Midfielders: Matthaeus, Mazzola, Suarez
(Beccalossi, Oriali)
Forwards: Altobelli, Corso, Meazza
(Angelillo, Boninsegna, Rummenigge,
Lorenzi, Nyers)
Others (excellent players as well, but unfortunately
there had to be someone left off!): Skoglund, Marini,
Bertini, Sarti, Vieri, Klinsmann, Sosa, Domenghini,
Cevinini, Jair, Diaz, Bordon.
Positions for the top eleven are below. Remember
that I have not attempted to have everyone in
their exact positions (left fullbacks, stoppers,
center halfs, etc.), rather I was looking to put
the all-time best in general areas (defenders,
midfielders, attackers). Of course, the keeper
and libero positions were made exact matches!
ELEVEN NERAZZURRI FOR HISTORY
Zenga
Picchi
Bergomi Burgnich Facchetti
Matthaeus Suarez S. Mazzola
Corso Altobelli Meazza
(Manager: Helenio "The Magician" Herrera)
Oh, I almost forgot, Cagao and Lampinho both got votes,
even though Cagao never was allowed off the plane at
Linate when visiting Milano as he insisted on teaching the
Samba repeatedly to a stewardess (excuse me, *flight
attendant*). Lampinho was more famous for having seduced
the entire secretarial (excuse me, *office assistant*)
pool of the Pirelli company rather than his short but
very artistic tenure as an Interista.....
Oh, yeah, that Ronaldinho guy -- he will have to put in
a few more years like this one before he gets on the
list. But is there *any* doubt?
- Riff "Cagao scored his perfect goal on that flight...." Ster
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Subject: Re: All-Time Inter Eleven
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:36:55 -0500
From: Paul Mettewie (panino@ix.netcom.com)
Ariel Mazzarelli wrote:
> Y Passarella?
He received some votes, but was short of making
the list of 22 as was Nicola Berti. I think he would
have made the list had he had a couple of more
years with the team.
It seemed that shorter tenures by strikers or midfielders
were tolerated more than those by defenders or keepers.
Angelillo was only an Inter player for four years, but in
one of those years he set the current record for scoring
in a single season in Serie A (33 goals.)
You were not the only one to complain about Passarella
not being on the list, but far more complained about not
putting Ronaldinho on the list. It would be slightly pre-
mature to put him on the list, although with any tenure
at all, I am sure he will be at least a reserve.